TRANSCRIPT
Kim
In our last episode, we began by talking about how we live under many different justice systems- through family, school, work, and society, and then Philipos, you brought up how there’s also a justice system within the self, and reminded us of your understanding of justice as being an unlocking and opening up.
Philipos
Yes, and that brought up your Opening the Door artwork, and we began talking about each of the pieces from the perspective of the justice system within the self. The symbols in the artwork gave us a lot of complex ideas to reflect on, and so we decided to pause, and continue talking about the rest of the work in Part 2. Let’s pick up where we left off and look at the next artwork. This one with the glasses…What is its name?
Kim
This one is The Caller,
Philipos
The Caller. Good. Right now, I’m Iooking at the eye-glasses in his hand. You know, sometimes I see justice as a matter of perspective. Or more than perspective, but perception. Sometimes we need eye-glasses to see.
Kim
Mmmm, yes,
Philipos
You have to be able to see, or to perceive, what is truly there. You have to be living it. You have to have the experience of it. You have to swim in it, like all the fishes over here on the left.
Kim
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I was just recalling what I was doing when I was making this piece. Do you see where the pen is in front of the arrow? This has to do with expression over violence, the classic “the pen is mightier than the sword,” statement. In this case, I had an arrow and not a sword. But in considering our internal justice system, we can think about how self-expression is stronger than a weapon for attack or defense. Developing your creative capacity will bring a more just outcome than using a defense that causes harm to others.
Philipos
The next thing that I see in this picture is the role of technology in the process of securing justice within. The thing in his hand — is it an iPad, or a phone?
Kim
It’s a phone.
Philipos
The smartphone represents the technology. When I see a phone, I ask myself a question about how technology helps me to understand justice within. Technology is a distraction from doing the necessary justice work. So, this is a question I want the listeners to ask too. What is the use of technology for our inner justice work?
Kim
That’s a really good question. When I put the phone in the hand, I was thinking of someone being called in a spiritual way. I think it could also mean being called to an action, or to the exploration of the self, or the exploration of justice. But also, there’s the call for help. On the phone, the time is 9:11, which brings up a call in an emergency, the unfolding of a traumatic event, as well as the historical September 11th attacks in the US. Also in this piece is a bell down there in the corner, which is another way of calling people together. A call together can be about community.
I think your interpretation of the technology as a distraction is quite valid though. It doesn’t matter if I thought of it as I created the work. If the art doesn’t carry other interpretations for other people, then it isn’t alive.
Philipos
Yes, that’s how I understand too. And I see the fish swimming upward. Fish are generative – meaning they relate to the process of evolution. They suggest to me an evolutionary way of understanding justice. For example, in our international courts today, we came to our senses to understand slavery as a clear violation of human rights. But in much of human history, slavery was a part of people’s lives. Now, in a global context, we are slowly attempting to understand how to be a post-slavery world. Like MLK said in one of his speeches, “The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice.” We are evolving in many aspects of humanity. We still have injustices, but we’re developing into better ways of living, and it gives me hope. Those fish going upward are us. We are coming up to, as they say, a perfect union, a perfect justice. It gives me hope.
Kim
That’s a very interesting interpretation of the fish.
I also bring my understanding as a Catholic artist to my work. When I began to think of this piece as “The Caller,” I began to associate it with Christ, and so there are other symbols here where Christ is represented. So you have the fish, you have the bread, and there’s the water –we say that Christ is the living water. At first, when I laid all the imagery out on this figure, but hadn’t yet glued anything down, I realized I had been thinking of Christ and used all positive imagery. I had also made another piece that we’ll look at, called, The Driver, which was made with all negative imagery, as the counter to Christ. I stopped myself and said, no, that’s not what I meant to work on with this series. This is about things that each of us carry in ourselves, that we repress, the sacred and the profane, that must be worked with in each person. So then I moved things around, to make sure that I balanced out the imagery more. But symbols of Christ still remain in this piece. I can also comment on the bread and the water as basic life-giving substances, things we can’t live without.
Philipos
Oh, that’s fantastic. I’d also like to talk about the bell. But let’s go to the next one, where he has the bell in his hand.
Kim:
Ok. This is the Bell Ringer.
Philipos
Yes. I see the bell as the voice, similar to the way you said about the call for help, but the way I see is that often we don’t listen to our voice within. Let’s say we go to school, we hear the bell ringing, and we go inside, or we change classes, or respond for whatever the bell is calling for, but what do we do when the bell within us rings? Do we hear our own voices? Before we ask somebody to listen to our voice, do we listen to it ourselves? Usually the struggle against injustice starts by listening to the voice within, and then we can extend that listening to others.
Kim
Yeah. It can be hard to pay attention to our own voice sometimes, when our inner voice is quiet, or when it’s saying something hard to follow.
When I worked on this figure I wanted to express an inquisitive person. He’s holding a hinge in the other hand and the hinge is a thing that allows something to turn, to swing, to move. The hinge can mean figuring out a different way of looking at something, how a situation turns. Thinking of how a hinge is used on a door, it can mean understanding how to see the other side of something, or how to pass through a threshold. Then, there’s the light bulb within his torso, and light bulbs make me think of ideas. There’s also the maple seeds, like the seeds of ideas, and the keys, which can be the keys to knowledge or understanding. I see this as a character engaged in exploration.
Philipos
Yeah exploration….
Kim
I think exploration is really important. We need to have openness to explore things. Earlier when we talked about The Controller image, and what it meant that she was holding the knife. If you don’t let yourself explore, it’s like when get an idea about something and you say, Oh no, I can’t have that idea. That’s a “wrong” idea. It’s like you take that knife and attack that idea down, right? Because you think you’re not supposed to have that idea. Then, well, you just, you’re killing your creativity. You’re killing any sense of being able to explore. When you can put that knife down, and let yourself move freely within yourself, you can begin to truly explore. That allows creativity to be expressed in you in whatever way it’s meant to come through you. For someone, exploration and creativity might come out as art, for another person, it might be math or science. For another person it might be how to build a city or how to lead their classroom. But it’s all relating to creativity. You bring out your most creative self when you put that knife down.
Philipos
Yeah, and in this case, the Justice conversation is also about the possibility of creativity and exploration. It sustains us to move forward and upward. Are we ready to move to the next one?
Kim
Sure. This is Mrs. Stone.
Philipos
Okay, Mrs. Stone. What is the explanation behind this one?
Kim:
You go first.
Philipos
Mrs. Stone raises questions for me. I don’t know if I have much explanation. Are we becoming stone? That was one question I had. Do you have answers?
Kim
This is one of the harder ones for me to talk about. She’s named for the stone that’s in her hand. I can see your suggestion about becoming stone: that it can represent the hardness we might have towards others. There can also be stability in stone, so it can be seen as a positive element, too. When I made this piece, I was working with a spiritual experience I’d had, and so I’m going to bypass a lot of why these images were chosen. But as we’re talking about symbols relating to justice right now, I think the stone can represent some interesting things. When we talk about somebody being hardened, we’re speaking about indifference that leads to injustice. Hardening ourselves allows atrocities to take place on a daily basis. Why is it that people are so indifferent? Why are we often hardened?
Another way of looking at the stone might be to have some stability, which can actually allow people to open themselves to what they’re seeing. Maybe instead of becoming hardened, becoming stone, someone can touch or hold that stone, to stay stable, to be brave in the face of what we witness. We have an expression that someone is “my rock,” meaning they’re my stability.
Another thing I’m just noticing – we might say someone has a “heart of stone.” This stone is somewhat heart shaped, in an anatomical sense. Let’s say her stone heart is in her hand. Then in the place in her chest where the heart should be is a chrysanthemum that’s being pierced with an arrow. Perhaps this gives Mrs. Stone a new perspective.
Philipos
This gives me some more interpretations. I’m glad we talk about this. and in addition to what you’re saying, I’m also seeing that she’s sitting in the lotus position, like a meditation, is that right?
Kim
She’s not quite sitting in a lotus position. One leg is behind her and one leg is in front of her.
Philipos:
For me, I thought of this as lotus sitting position. I like seeing it that way.
Kim
That’s good that you have your own way of looking at it. It keeps the art alive.
Philipos
Okay, good. Now let’s take a look at the next one.
Kim
This one’s called The Groomer. I wonder sometimes if I have named it well, because the word can have more negative connotations than I intended. It’s a term used for grooming a target for sexual assault. While these pieces do address some pretty intense darkness, I didn’t want this figure to be seen as absolutely being that dark. I called her the groomer because she held a comb in her hand. And someone can be groomed in many ways. You can be groomed to take over your parent’s business, or to be the successor in some other organization. Parents groom their children for adulthood in whatever way they think is needed. But I want to stop talking for a bit and get your interpretations of this first.
Philipos
Yeah, for me, a groomer is related to imitation. Like a child raised to imitate the parent. So, I don’t see it in a negative way. I see it in a foundational way. People should ask, what image am I being groomed for? The Groomer is an invitation. It calls us to open up and see what we are invited to imitate. The three Abrahamic religions, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have a belief that we are created in the image of the divine. As I look at this from a Christian perspective, I am thinking about having within ourselves an image of divine justice, and that we need to open to that image. So, it leads me to a question, am I up to that image? Am I open to that grooming?
Kim
I have something to say about the hammer in her hand. But I want to hear what you have to say first.
Philipos
I don’t have anything good to say about it. The hammer is used to shut me up. In fact it’s the antithesis of opening up. That is how I see the hammer. But to give some small benefit of the doubt, a hammer it could be used as a carpentry tool to make something like a table or chair. In society, a hammer might be a tool for building some sort of structure. Once it’s been built, I don’t see the hammer anymore, but I use the structure. I see that as some good thing. In a court setting, the hammer could be used to provide structure, but we shouldn’t take the court setting as the end in itself, which we often do.
Kim
The hammer in this particular picture isn’t a hammer for construction. It’s a hammer for the courtroom, held by the judge. Somebody could look at it and think it’s about justice. Right? When I was drawing this, I was having a terrible time. This was so difficult to draw because it’s so symmetrical. The handle is perfectly turned. All the symmetry is curved. The surface is highly lacquered. Every line must be perfectly balanced and in perspective. I’m used to drawing organic things. I make these drawings with fine lines of solid black India ink on the paper, with no pencil underdrawing. On this hammer, if my hand waivered at all, or if I got the balance slightly wrong, the whole thing looked off. As I was having such a very hard time drawing this, I was reflecting on what we expect of people in our state-run justice systems. We expect them to be a little like this hammer we hold. The law can be very rigid, like this hammer is rigid. The court asks did this person do it? And what consequence is required? The court often doesn’t look at what needs to happen in order for someone to change, to heal, and to have accountability for their actions. Nor what a victim needs for healing and closure. Nor what changes must take place in our culture to prevent this harm from continuing to happen. These are very human things. And none of them is precisely turned, precisely balanced and symmetrical. None of them is rigid. Real justice must take on a human shape, but our courts are associated with this hammer. It doesn’t represent justice. It represents condemnation. It condemns all the parts of you that are not precisely turned, balanced, or defined in the rigid way that is considered permissible by the court.
Philipos
Oh, wow. So to add to your point is instead of a court hammer of judgment, there could be a flower as talking piece such as is used in a restorative justice circle. A flower is a sign of beauty. I wish our courts would come to learn to see the beauty in each human. The flower in our Justice Conversation website logo symbolizes relationship, inclusion, and finally opening up. So, the alternative of the court hammer is a flower. What do you think?
Kim
I can picture our justice process changing from the layout our courtrooms have now, to a circular layout, based on restorative justice circles, where instead of a judge, we have a facilitator, and all the stakeholders are present. It does seem a bit like a flower structure, like this rose that’s also in this piece. It can seem with a rose that the petals are continually opening. The more you go into the situation of harm that occurred, the more you find, and the more potential for healing. But, I’m also seeing a bit of caution here in this piece. I didn’t interpret it this way initially when I put it in, but here it is. I see there is another flower that’s near the rose. It looks like Queen Anne’s lace or wild parsnip. But the leaves reveal that it’s actually poison. It’s hemlock. It’s like a natural poison hidden within beauty. What does that have to do with justice? It might be that we’re kind of a mess. Sometimes we think that we’re doing something positive and we’re really not, we’re really harming somebody. And so, we have to be careful. But these are things that can be examined within ourselves and also with each other.
Philipos
Great, should go to the next one?
Kim
This is The Examiner.
Philipos
So, when we when we examine ourselves, it’s of course the work of justice. But under the knee of the examiner is the whip. Justice is the work of loving and knowing ourselves, and in the process, we shouldn’t beat ourselves. Also, examiner, it shouldn’t mean like, when they do an interrogation in the jail, in some parts of the world, such as where I’m from, and they whip you to tell the truth to demand to know what’s going on. That’s not justice. Justice has to be when you sit within your individual self and be kind and love yourself.
Kim
In this piece I had a medical professional in mind. You’ll notice the snake is wrapped around the arrow. It’s like the medical symbol of the snake with the staff. I was using the objects that I had already drawn and printed in order to make it into a medical symbol. With regards to the whip, I was thinking that if you are in the medical profession in our country, that’s a very driven occupation, right? You have a lot of schooling to go through. Residencies are grueling. The work you do once you’re in regular practice is demanding. I made these pieces before the coronavirus epidemic, but certainly what’s come since then has been extremely grueling for medical and health professionals. That whip was there to speak to the way people in this profession are expected to be driven.
In his upper hand is the egg. I’ve used the egg in a number of pieces to represent truth.
Philipos
Truth? Wow, How?
Kim
That’s a good question! (laughs)
Um, I guess it’s something about understanding. The egg is… the egg is something that is hard to understand. Looking at it, one might wonder, “How on earth does that turn into a creature?” We might try to study and understand that through science, or maybe through faith. How does life happen? Examining the egg one might be wondering, how is this life working? What is really happening in a given situation? What is the hidden thing going on beneath this surface? What will this egg become? You can examine the egg, how life works, how truth unfolds, from so many different perspectives: philosophical, religious, literary, sociological, psychological… and also relational. In other words, you can look at the egg from a perspective of someone seeking truth for the sake of justice. Down here by his leg is an egg that’s cracked open and the baby bird in it has died. In the whole egg is possibility. Maybe you don’t know what it will become, or how it will become, and you’re trying to understand it. In order for it to become its full potential, it needs to be cared for. But then, it can also be violated. It can die.
Philipos
Okay, wow. That’s really scary and challenging. So, you’re saying that in the process of getting truth and justice there is also the possibility that we might die. Seeking justice isn’t always resulting in fairness. It can take our life.
Kim
Well, yes, I’m afraid that’s what I witness. And I suppose this offers a transition into the next piece, The Gunslinger.
Philipos
The way I see it, in the Gunslinger, by violence there is nothing to open up. Along with the gun in her hand, here is the card that she’s holding in her other hand. I see that for her, violence is the game of the day, or the play of the day to try to make justice. She should watch out. We should too.
Kim
I have the gun in her hand as a symbol of explosiveness, or anger, that’s present in a lot of people. You might not be going around thinking you’re a violent person, and other people might not think of you as a violent person, but a lot of people still carry quite a lot of anger around with them. And it’s ready to ignite unexpectedly, causing a lot of problems. Most of these problems won’t put you in the criminal system, but they’re still going to cause harm to those around you and for yourself. I also have her associated with black and white thinking. The card, the dominoes, the barcode are black and white. There’s a sense of judgment here. Someone is right or wrong, good or evil. And so we’ve also got the the hammer coming down on the rock, like the courtroom, with the hammer of condemnation. We’ve got the control issues going on here, too, with the remote control, as well as addictions – the pills and cigarette. I see this person as somebody who has suffered a lot of trauma, and is pretty damaged. But she’s resilient. She has the salt within her. It preserves her and gives her a certain flavor, a salty personality. It’s part of her trying to survive that has led to the explosiveness, the black and white thinking, the addiction. This is a key understanding in restorative justice work, to realize how often harm someone commits is due to past trauma and the ways the person is trying to survive that.
Philipos
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I like the salt idea that gives the perspective of preservation. And again, when you carry the gun, the sense of justice is lost. Violence is not the way of justice.
Kim
There are some other positive symbols here. There’s faithfulness in the ring. Which, you know, has to do with loyalty. I think I see this person as somebody who really values loyalty. And there’s the saffron flower here. Saffron is very precious. There are things that this person holds as very precious, very special, and they want to protect them.
Philipos
The next one is holding the starfish.
Kim
This is the Stargazer.
Philipos
So this is Stargazer. I see in this that justice needs spaciousness. We need to be able to have the imaginative capacity to see the work of justice, in order to bring justice towards us for our own future. Other than that, I want to hear from your perspective.
Kim
Ok. In this piece I have the nature of the poet, writer, or artist in mind. Where he’s gazing at the starfish, I’m thinking someone who has their mind focused on something so beautiful that you can see, and maybe others aren’t even looking. But that beautiful vision can also be threatening, because it makes it hard to connect with those who don’t see it. It makes it hard just to be in this world, where what you can see in your mind and in your heart doesn’t exist out there. The threat posed by that tension is represented by the noose, which is also in his hand, with the starfish.
Philipos
Wow. That’s interesting.
Kim
So in that vein, this figure also has the egg representing truth, the dove representing spirit and peace. In the black iris is a sense of blooming in a deep, rich color. The closed spiral of the fern is unfurling, and the bud is ready to open, and the seeds to grow and spread. But then this figure also has the knife representing a tendency to attack, maybe the self, or the ideas, or the work. There are the symbols representing addictions and there’s the hemlock, the poison.
Philipos
Okay, you challenged me. This invites me to do more meditating about many things. Sometimes making a space in our lives for the silence of contemplation, or prayer, or meditation, helps us more than we thought, in the work of justice. So going on to the next one.
Kim
This is The Driver, which I referred to before. This is kind of a companion to The Caller. Even though I tried to separate them, they still seem to me to pair together.
Philipos
The Driver brings up a question for me of, “What drives us?” Such as when we are driven by profession, or by seeking for justice, whatever drives us in our life. There is a lot of drive within ourselves, in each individual person. That driver shouldn’t take away the justice within ourselves. Let’s say I have a stressful profession, or am seeking justice. These occupations shouldn’t drive us crazy. They shouldn’t kill justice toward ourselves, you know, like taking us to the point of burning out. Especially, I see this in many activists, they get burned out, they get frustrated. So this piece, it reminds me to watch out. What’s your driver doing? Is it doing justice within you? Or is it taking justice out of you? Watch out for the driver.
Kim
I think you’re right on with what this is about, for me. I’ll just add something that I read in the writings of CJ Jung. He said in his “Memories, Dreams, Reflections” memoire that he felt he had always had Daemon, d-a-e-m-o-n, which is related to the word demon, but does not refer to something inherently evil. It comes from an ancient Greek concept of a spirit that compels you forward to work towards a certain fate or destination. Jung felt that in his work, he was driven, such as by a daemon. It kept pushing him on, to get the writing out, to keep considering his experiences, and keep trying to figure out what they meant, and to keep talking to others about it.
I feel like I can relate to that sense of being driven by the daemon. I’m somebody who tends to work a lot on a lot of different things, and I get carried away with many ideas. I’m often trying to bring many into play at once. And so I ask, to what extent is that a positive thing, or a negative thing? Maybe looking at it in terms of the internal justice system can help balance that, and can give someone some ability to check the driver, to stop it at times? Maybe it’s not possible to stop it, but maybe one can slow it down or get it to steer things a little differently when it’s creating imbalances or harm.
Philipos
Insightful. I like the perspective of Carl Jung’s understanding of the daemon. I would like to read more about it. So the next one?
Kim
Okay, here we have Miss Mouse. She’s kind of like Mrs. Stone but very different.
Philipos
Okay. You go ahead first this time.
Kim
I guess when I was making this, I saw this figure as being youthful. Maybe not having things quite figured out yet, and still being timid. There’s all three of the flowers here, and the flower bud, and the fern unfurling are about the youthfulness. There’s still a lot coming ahead for this person in their life.. And the bowl. What can the bowl contain? The bowl can contain anything. There’s a lot of possibility here for this young person. The nest is on her head like a hat. It’s a decoration, sort of a vanity. I was thinking of how a young person will accessorize to portray a certain image, to make themselves look cute, or pretty, or to fit in.
Then we also have some warning signs here. Here’s the barcode, which I brought up before as black-and-white thinking. It can also represent commercialization. A lot of people, and youth especially, really buy into the commercial trends. What is today’s must-have item? They feel like they’re not okay if they’re not a part of it. And we’ve got the locusts here which consume things. There are quite a few locusts in this piece. They’re among the things poised to create harm for the opening possibility in this individual. And here’s the broken egg, the truth that’s been damaged already. I guess for me there’s the sense that this figure is young but moving into adulthood. As we grow, we become more and more harmed. How we respond to each other without creating more harm has to do with how we process the harm we received. This has been happening for her, and she sometimes hasn’t had the capacity to work with that. Though she does also have the full egg in here, which is hopeful.
Philipos
So, I knew that for me the name is indicative. The name is Miss Mouse, which I understand especially as being about opening possibility. If I go to my native language, Tigrinya, there is a saying, ‘’ ንዓይ ንኣንጭዋ ሲ ኣብ ሎቖታ ! “. The mouse is ridiculing the person who has trapped it, and says, “Don’t dare to put me in a leather bag.” What it means is, don’t try to arrest me, or shut me up. The mouse is saying, “if you think you will trap me by putting me in a leather bag, you’re wrong. I love the bag. Leather is delicious. I will devour the trap you set me in.” So, for me, the mouse demonstrates self-confidence. There is nothing after all that you can do to shut me up. At the end of the day there is no closing me down. The self is going to be free. Justice is gonna come.
Kim
That is so strong. I like that. I didn’t know Miss Mouse had that tenacity, and here it’s her main identifying symbol. Now I know her better!
The last one is The Breadwinner.
Philipos
“Breadwinner” is a common term. In America it’s said you go out and you earn money and bring the bread to your family. But you don’t bring only food to your family. You bring justice too. Your children can’t eat only food. Justice is what happens when you do the justice work within yourself. Call it shadow work. Call it love work. Once you do that work, you bring it to your home, your family. Then you’re a breadwinner. Justice is as sustaining as the food we consume and the oxygen we breathe in everyday ordinary life. So, I don’t look at the breadwinner from a strict food perspective. Many people burn out because they diminish ordinary life by being focused on bringing only food to the house.
Kim
That’s very insightful. I think you’re ahead of where I was when I was made this piece. I was thinking about the expectation put on men, which is bought into as part of masculine identity, that men should be breadwinners. That is both a source of stress and a source of pride. Being a capable breadwinner is a way that many men nurture their family. It can be their way of showing their family that they care. But it can also be damaging. It feeds the patriarchal model. Rather than balance between men and women in the family, it constrains both the male role and the female role, regardless of skills, interests, and abilities. It can encourage domestic violence, and I think there’s a certain amount of violence that is endured by men in this role as well, in what they have to suppress, in the way they need to come down hard on themselves, within themselves, in order to assume the demands of this role. There is a violence to male children, as they are raised into this role. For example, don’t show your feelings, don’t cry, be tough.
In the Breadwinner’s symbols in this artwork, he has the ring for faithfulness and fidelity. There’s also the gun, which represents the role of protecting the family. Often this figure is also the enforcer, of the family rules. There’s the bacon. He’s gotta bring home the bacon. There’s the safety pin, which is like a quick fix for things that gets by but doesn’t repair the damage. This domino is a bit of black and white thinking, dualistic thinking, such as in the dualistic role of male and female in the family. There’s also the nest, representing the home, a place to nurture family. The nest is here, it’s important to him, but it’s also sideways because sometimes the mindset can too rigidly define everybody’s roles and actually upend the safety of the family members. But, there’s also the nourishment of the bread, the fish. Here we have a lemon. Lemons, make lemonade, a symbol of taking what you’ve got and make it into something good, a symbol of resilience. In restorative justice work, it’s important to both see what is causing harm, and also not condemn the person. People’s actions always fulfill a kind of need. It’s important to look at what influences behavior with compassion, and to be open to the goodwill within someone, while at the same time working with the more challenging aspects of people’s beliefs, behaviors, and actions.
Philipos
I think we’ve opened a lot of discussion points when it comes to justice within, and we invite our listeners to contemplate and share your thoughts with us. Kim’s Opening the Door artwork can be viewed on our YouTube Channel or on the podcast page of this episode at justiceconversation.org
Kim Yes, in our next episode we can talk about justice within the family and school. But I haven’t done a whole body of artwork on that. Until next time!